Yes you’re probably right, the ‘end of history’ perspective that the West has settled into probably has a lot to do with it, too.
I think it can also be explained by the business mindset that’s increasingly applied to creative industries.
I remember once David Cameron encouraging the British film industry to ‘make more films like Harry Potter, because it’s so successful’. Completely failing to understand that creativity withers under that kind of imitative approach. Although in business terms I guess you could argue that he was onto something given the revenue generated through all the superhero films.
Anyway, thanks again for covering the book. Enjoy your weekend... and the new Dolly Parton album.
Just finished listening to the episode and feel I have some explaining to do to justify my suggestion of Ghosts of My Life. Firstly, I should say that I enjoyed listening to your take on the book, even though you weren’t overly keen on it. I think Mark Fisher, at times, uses very relatable cultural examples to explain ideas and concepts that would otherwise be less accessible to non-academics. The part of the book where he uses Amy Winehouse and the Artic Monkeys is a good example of this. Wherein he notes that this ‘new music’ was indistinguishable to him from music released decades earlier. And how this new-but-old sound can serve to make time feel out of joint. But I agree with Tom that he often leans on unnecessarily complex philosophy that doesn’t serve to explain much, certainly not to those of us without a background in Derrida, Foulcault, etc.
It’s been a while since I read the book but the hauntology idea he laid out did help put an explanation to a sense of cultural stagnation I’d felt for some time. The idea that music (and film, tv shows, etc.) has a direction; artists progressively build off one another while also trying out new things - things that often reflect and interpret what is going on in the world at that time. Punk music would be a decent example. It was very much of its time, in that it was addressing the politics and it’s effects during that era. However, some time at the beginning of the 2000s that directionality stalled. As he argues, a lot of music began to look backwards, not for inspiration but more so as imitation or pastiche. This helped me to understand the ‘time out of joint’ quality modern music can have. Many of the musical signifiers The Artic Monkeys, for example, ape in their music belong to a time that has long past. And I think that cultural content stripped of its connection to its time period helps explain why there can be an eerie timelessness to it. That perhaps we don’t have a sense of the new pulling us forward, culturally, as much as we once did. Instead things are stalling. As he says, where are the Kraftwerks of today? Bands who bring something out that feels entirely new and fresh. (There probably are a few examples that exist but I not aware of them).
The explanations he gives for this phenomenon, such as the politics of austerity and the increasing corporatisation of cultural output, did help highlight how capitalism might be affecting music, tv and films today. The book probably suffers from the specific examples he references, because like you, I found most of the music he draws upon for inspiration to be pretty, well, uninspiring.
But I think your mention of nostalgia in relation to Fisher is not that fitting. I don’t think he’s nostalgic for the past, but instead keen to have a present and future that can continue to put out fresh and exciting new content as he felt he had when growing up. To me that’s not nostalgia, he’s just using personal examples to highlight the processes that gave rise to stuff he likes, and how that process and has eroded, and culture has to some degree stagnated as a result.
Anyway, that was my longwinded and tepid defence of the book’s main thesis. But nevertheless I do agree with most of your criticisms, too. Thanks for taking up my suggestion, and I’m looking forward to further episodes because, yes, I am a regular listener :)
Dear Joe, I hope you're still listening to us! I just wanted to say that I've just finished reading "Post Capitalist Desire", the collection of Mark Fisher's final lectures, and I found it fantastic. His real talent, I'm convinced, was as a lecturer and the students occasionally acting as a chorus, chiming in with questions and opinions, moves everything along beautifully; there were only a couple of occasions where I felt lost and I'm very much an amateur in this field. If you haven't read it, get it and skip the introduction, written by Mark Colqihoun it's full of jargon and nothing like the rest of the book. All the best!
Hi Gav - sorry for the late reply. Yes, I’m still listening to and enjoying the podcast. I’m glad to hear you searched out some more of Fisher’s stuff. I listened to those series of lectures on YouTube a couple of years ago and also found them fantastic. He’s such an interesting thinker, and I agree that he’s clearly a talented lecturer. Sometimes his writing style can get pretty dense when he leans into continental philosophy. His lectures, though, I found much more accessible and digestible.
I’ve got a couple of GG episodes to catch up on, but was going to write a comment to you and Tom. I’ve been watching a lot of older films recently and have sought out some of the ones you’ve discussed or suggested. I loved Sweet Smell of Success. I was surprised with just how dark and unflinching the characters were in a film of that period. Also really liked After hours and Parallax View, too. I still have some more to get to, like Exterminating Angel and In the Soup, but hope you do another double feature episode at some point.
I’ve actually been watching a lot of films from the 70s recently (e.g. McCabe and Mrs Miller, Network, Last Detail) and am taken aback by how different they are from what came in the 80s. By contrast, they have more of an art house feel, in that they are often gritty and deal with deep themes in a more nuanced manner. I watched Five Easy Pieces last week and found it really stuck with me afterwards for days. I’ve never seen an ending to a film quite like that. Jack Nicholson’s character is really engaging despite being quite unlikeable. So yeah, if you and Tom ever decide to do a 70s double feature, I’ll be all ears
Hi Tom - yes, totally agree about the Five Easy Pieces soundtrack, it goes perfectly with what’s on screen. I think the kind of questions you mention are another a big part of why the film stayed with me.
Also, Bobby, for all of his flaws, is doing something quite bold by trying find a job, friends, girlfriend and life that suits him. I know some might view him as running away from his past, but I didn’t see it that way. And unlike most films where the main character ‘follows their heart’, we get to see how fraught breaking free of your past and starting out again can actually be. Especially when you’re someone as troubled, talented, and impulsive as him.
Totally agree about Network, too. It seems to be tapping into so much of what was just around the corner. As well as some trends in the media landscape we see today, which is pretty incredible. Also, I found Beatrice Straight’s performance so impressive. The way she conveyed the pain and betrayal of her husband’s affair seemed so intense and real. Like she was tapping into something from her own life. It was only a short scene, but wow. I read afterwards that she won the Oscar for that performance with the shortest ever time onscreen - just 5 minutes.
Anyway, I’m here to also nudge Gav to consider Five Easy Pieces. I always enjoy hearing you two discuss interesting films and I think this one would be an ideal candidate. Also, thanks Tom, I will search out The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie.
Hope you’re both doing well. Looking forward to hearing more great episodes soon!
That Beatrice Straight performance is one of those that makes me hope that she was a the kind of pro that can do that for as many takes as it takes and not need psychiatric treatment after. Thinking of Duvall in (and real star of) The Shining and Huston in The Grifters.
I proposed Five Easy Pieces for the pod to Gav and ... crickets. It's an uncomfortable thing but kept me glued. The use of the Tammy Wynette songs is stunningly effective. It artfully asks the audience the questions: What would you do in Bobby's position raised in that miserable family? And if you turned your back on it like he did, would you turn out as happy as he seems?
Network is THE BEST. It's so cool how it matured from outrageous comedy when it was made into documentary by the late twenty teens. I watch the "The world is a business, Mister Beal" scene on Oootoob often. I think I'll watch it now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35DSdw7dHjs "To see that perfect world, in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality; one vast and ecumenical holding company for whom all men will work to serve a common profit [prophet?]; in which all men will hold a share of stock; all necessities provided; all anxieties tranquilized; all boredom amused." That was three years before Thatcher became PM and four before Reagan president! Amazing. (The semicolons are for you, Gav!)
Speaking of Buñuel, I saw The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie recently. Hilarious.
Not just regular listener but clearly also RAPID. We have this within just a few hours. Damn, that was quick. Thanks!
I think we all agree that Fisher was right that something stalled in the development of culture. And none of us are entirely sure how to explain that. Fisher ventured some ideas that got us thinking and arguing and that is valuable in itself.
I'm starting to think in terms of the peak of Western Empire. Suddenly in the 90s there was a mono-polar world order. Since y2k it's all been about holding on to that, keeping up appearances as other great powers emerge and perhaps that's why our culture stalled as others take the stage, including language. If so then maybe the sense of progress 60-80s was really tailwinds from winning a wold war and fighting a cold one.
Idk. Time to listen to Dolly Parton's new album. She's my hero.
Yes you’re probably right, the ‘end of history’ perspective that the West has settled into probably has a lot to do with it, too.
I think it can also be explained by the business mindset that’s increasingly applied to creative industries.
I remember once David Cameron encouraging the British film industry to ‘make more films like Harry Potter, because it’s so successful’. Completely failing to understand that creativity withers under that kind of imitative approach. Although in business terms I guess you could argue that he was onto something given the revenue generated through all the superhero films.
Anyway, thanks again for covering the book. Enjoy your weekend... and the new Dolly Parton album.
Just finished listening to the episode and feel I have some explaining to do to justify my suggestion of Ghosts of My Life. Firstly, I should say that I enjoyed listening to your take on the book, even though you weren’t overly keen on it. I think Mark Fisher, at times, uses very relatable cultural examples to explain ideas and concepts that would otherwise be less accessible to non-academics. The part of the book where he uses Amy Winehouse and the Artic Monkeys is a good example of this. Wherein he notes that this ‘new music’ was indistinguishable to him from music released decades earlier. And how this new-but-old sound can serve to make time feel out of joint. But I agree with Tom that he often leans on unnecessarily complex philosophy that doesn’t serve to explain much, certainly not to those of us without a background in Derrida, Foulcault, etc.
It’s been a while since I read the book but the hauntology idea he laid out did help put an explanation to a sense of cultural stagnation I’d felt for some time. The idea that music (and film, tv shows, etc.) has a direction; artists progressively build off one another while also trying out new things - things that often reflect and interpret what is going on in the world at that time. Punk music would be a decent example. It was very much of its time, in that it was addressing the politics and it’s effects during that era. However, some time at the beginning of the 2000s that directionality stalled. As he argues, a lot of music began to look backwards, not for inspiration but more so as imitation or pastiche. This helped me to understand the ‘time out of joint’ quality modern music can have. Many of the musical signifiers The Artic Monkeys, for example, ape in their music belong to a time that has long past. And I think that cultural content stripped of its connection to its time period helps explain why there can be an eerie timelessness to it. That perhaps we don’t have a sense of the new pulling us forward, culturally, as much as we once did. Instead things are stalling. As he says, where are the Kraftwerks of today? Bands who bring something out that feels entirely new and fresh. (There probably are a few examples that exist but I not aware of them).
The explanations he gives for this phenomenon, such as the politics of austerity and the increasing corporatisation of cultural output, did help highlight how capitalism might be affecting music, tv and films today. The book probably suffers from the specific examples he references, because like you, I found most of the music he draws upon for inspiration to be pretty, well, uninspiring.
But I think your mention of nostalgia in relation to Fisher is not that fitting. I don’t think he’s nostalgic for the past, but instead keen to have a present and future that can continue to put out fresh and exciting new content as he felt he had when growing up. To me that’s not nostalgia, he’s just using personal examples to highlight the processes that gave rise to stuff he likes, and how that process and has eroded, and culture has to some degree stagnated as a result.
Anyway, that was my longwinded and tepid defence of the book’s main thesis. But nevertheless I do agree with most of your criticisms, too. Thanks for taking up my suggestion, and I’m looking forward to further episodes because, yes, I am a regular listener :)
Dear Joe, I hope you're still listening to us! I just wanted to say that I've just finished reading "Post Capitalist Desire", the collection of Mark Fisher's final lectures, and I found it fantastic. His real talent, I'm convinced, was as a lecturer and the students occasionally acting as a chorus, chiming in with questions and opinions, moves everything along beautifully; there were only a couple of occasions where I felt lost and I'm very much an amateur in this field. If you haven't read it, get it and skip the introduction, written by Mark Colqihoun it's full of jargon and nothing like the rest of the book. All the best!
Hi Gav - sorry for the late reply. Yes, I’m still listening to and enjoying the podcast. I’m glad to hear you searched out some more of Fisher’s stuff. I listened to those series of lectures on YouTube a couple of years ago and also found them fantastic. He’s such an interesting thinker, and I agree that he’s clearly a talented lecturer. Sometimes his writing style can get pretty dense when he leans into continental philosophy. His lectures, though, I found much more accessible and digestible.
I’ve got a couple of GG episodes to catch up on, but was going to write a comment to you and Tom. I’ve been watching a lot of older films recently and have sought out some of the ones you’ve discussed or suggested. I loved Sweet Smell of Success. I was surprised with just how dark and unflinching the characters were in a film of that period. Also really liked After hours and Parallax View, too. I still have some more to get to, like Exterminating Angel and In the Soup, but hope you do another double feature episode at some point.
I’ve actually been watching a lot of films from the 70s recently (e.g. McCabe and Mrs Miller, Network, Last Detail) and am taken aback by how different they are from what came in the 80s. By contrast, they have more of an art house feel, in that they are often gritty and deal with deep themes in a more nuanced manner. I watched Five Easy Pieces last week and found it really stuck with me afterwards for days. I’ve never seen an ending to a film quite like that. Jack Nicholson’s character is really engaging despite being quite unlikeable. So yeah, if you and Tom ever decide to do a 70s double feature, I’ll be all ears
Hi Tom - yes, totally agree about the Five Easy Pieces soundtrack, it goes perfectly with what’s on screen. I think the kind of questions you mention are another a big part of why the film stayed with me.
Also, Bobby, for all of his flaws, is doing something quite bold by trying find a job, friends, girlfriend and life that suits him. I know some might view him as running away from his past, but I didn’t see it that way. And unlike most films where the main character ‘follows their heart’, we get to see how fraught breaking free of your past and starting out again can actually be. Especially when you’re someone as troubled, talented, and impulsive as him.
Totally agree about Network, too. It seems to be tapping into so much of what was just around the corner. As well as some trends in the media landscape we see today, which is pretty incredible. Also, I found Beatrice Straight’s performance so impressive. The way she conveyed the pain and betrayal of her husband’s affair seemed so intense and real. Like she was tapping into something from her own life. It was only a short scene, but wow. I read afterwards that she won the Oscar for that performance with the shortest ever time onscreen - just 5 minutes.
Anyway, I’m here to also nudge Gav to consider Five Easy Pieces. I always enjoy hearing you two discuss interesting films and I think this one would be an ideal candidate. Also, thanks Tom, I will search out The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie.
Hope you’re both doing well. Looking forward to hearing more great episodes soon!
That Beatrice Straight performance is one of those that makes me hope that she was a the kind of pro that can do that for as many takes as it takes and not need psychiatric treatment after. Thinking of Duvall in (and real star of) The Shining and Huston in The Grifters.
Thanks for listening and your encouragement.
Nice to hear from you again, Joe.
I proposed Five Easy Pieces for the pod to Gav and ... crickets. It's an uncomfortable thing but kept me glued. The use of the Tammy Wynette songs is stunningly effective. It artfully asks the audience the questions: What would you do in Bobby's position raised in that miserable family? And if you turned your back on it like he did, would you turn out as happy as he seems?
Network is THE BEST. It's so cool how it matured from outrageous comedy when it was made into documentary by the late twenty teens. I watch the "The world is a business, Mister Beal" scene on Oootoob often. I think I'll watch it now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35DSdw7dHjs "To see that perfect world, in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality; one vast and ecumenical holding company for whom all men will work to serve a common profit [prophet?]; in which all men will hold a share of stock; all necessities provided; all anxieties tranquilized; all boredom amused." That was three years before Thatcher became PM and four before Reagan president! Amazing. (The semicolons are for you, Gav!)
Speaking of Buñuel, I saw The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie recently. Hilarious.
What I saw on ootoob shows Fisher as a good classroom teacher.
Not just regular listener but clearly also RAPID. We have this within just a few hours. Damn, that was quick. Thanks!
I think we all agree that Fisher was right that something stalled in the development of culture. And none of us are entirely sure how to explain that. Fisher ventured some ideas that got us thinking and arguing and that is valuable in itself.
I'm starting to think in terms of the peak of Western Empire. Suddenly in the 90s there was a mono-polar world order. Since y2k it's all been about holding on to that, keeping up appearances as other great powers emerge and perhaps that's why our culture stalled as others take the stage, including language. If so then maybe the sense of progress 60-80s was really tailwinds from winning a wold war and fighting a cold one.
Idk. Time to listen to Dolly Parton's new album. She's my hero.