Thanks for linking the Bill Burford wiki link, Tom. It seems like the ritual football hooliganism was in full swing in the 80s and 90s in Glasgow and most of the major British cities back then. Although it definitely gets taken up a notch when you fold religion into the mix, as with Rangers and Celtic.
Often the films that depict football violence aren’t great and tend to glorify fighting and repressed masculinity. Where I feel like it’s more interesting to think about it as one of many forms of collective ritual that satisfies a need to collectively bond with others. Burford seems to see things this way too, based on the quote on the wiki page.
Historically group rituals seem like they were much more common and woven into most cultures because they appear to function as a collective release valve. Wether that’s dancing, playing music, sport, or combat, they have some self transcendent property that helps bring people together in a way that is psychologically impactful. I think Durkheim referred to it as ‘collective effervescent’.
Sadly, it seems like these cultural rituals are thinning out over time. Certainly it seems so in the US and Europe. Obviously losing hooliganism isn’t something to mourn over, but other big collective scenes like raves in the 90s definitely, for example, fed into a collective feeling or connection that people crave. Today that craving often gets commodified by modern fad’s like CrossFit where they use say things we’re a ‘family’. I guess this is better than nothing but it seems like a poor substitute compared to some of the older collective rituals.
Re. The riots, I do agree with you that the same reward circuits are probably at work when people pile on to someone online. Again though, this seems like a psychologically poor substitute to more traditional forms of collective protest. Not to mention, less useful in terms of outcomes at the group or societal level.
This was my first introduction to the podcast after reading High Rise and then seeking out some commentary on the book. It was a great find -- I really enjoyed your insights and personal stories connected to the themes of the book.
While I can't say I loved it, I found the story really intriguing. I agreed with Tom that there is a decent chunk where not much happens to develop the plot, but nonetheless it held my attention as I tried to understand the psychology of the residents. Or more specifically, why are they so committed to staying when things become so violent and dysfunctional? Unlike Tom, my read of the book was not that most of the residents eventually left, but that they stuck it out until the bloody end (literally).
I came to think that this might be Ballard depicting -- in a very exaggerated way -- how modern life is often so alienating, individualised, and perfunctory to many city professionals, that when a more chaotic situation emerges it just becomes intoxicating, in a primal sense. Through experiencing tribalism and the ability to lash out directly at some of the things that bother them, related to class inequality, etc., they became overwhelmingly drawn into the whole situation after living such a comfortable and conventional life for so long. So I do agree with Gav's suggestion that it might have some parallels with Fight Club.
In some sense, it did also seem kind of Freudian. Like the collective Id was lashing out after being dominated by the buttoned-down norms of the Superego for too long, perhaps. I'm not a fan of Freud but this seemed like it might have been an influence on Ballard's writing.
Personally, I remember when I was living in London during the riots related to the police killing of Mark Dugan in 2011. I was surprised at feeling excited and enlivened by there being some chaos and collective action on my doorstep because I'd not really experienced anything like that. I think it showed me 1) how viscerally powerful certain chaos or collective action can feel, and 2) how much it contrasts with the normal state in which we button down so many personal and collective grievances and channel them into weak substitutes like work or TV instead. Obviously that differs from the situation in the book but it did bring to mind the appeal of direct action, in some sense.
Anyway, I love the show and have discovered lots of new films and books to check out based on your other episodes. So thanks for what you're doing and please keep it up! Also, if I can put in a request for a future episode, it would be Mark Fisher's Ghosts of My Life. I found the ideas of 'lost futures' and hauntology to be really fascinating. I would love to hear you guys discuss it in a future episode as I think it covers a lot of topics that you both seem interested in.
Thanks for linking the Bill Burford wiki link, Tom. It seems like the ritual football hooliganism was in full swing in the 80s and 90s in Glasgow and most of the major British cities back then. Although it definitely gets taken up a notch when you fold religion into the mix, as with Rangers and Celtic.
Often the films that depict football violence aren’t great and tend to glorify fighting and repressed masculinity. Where I feel like it’s more interesting to think about it as one of many forms of collective ritual that satisfies a need to collectively bond with others. Burford seems to see things this way too, based on the quote on the wiki page.
Historically group rituals seem like they were much more common and woven into most cultures because they appear to function as a collective release valve. Wether that’s dancing, playing music, sport, or combat, they have some self transcendent property that helps bring people together in a way that is psychologically impactful. I think Durkheim referred to it as ‘collective effervescent’.
Sadly, it seems like these cultural rituals are thinning out over time. Certainly it seems so in the US and Europe. Obviously losing hooliganism isn’t something to mourn over, but other big collective scenes like raves in the 90s definitely, for example, fed into a collective feeling or connection that people crave. Today that craving often gets commodified by modern fad’s like CrossFit where they use say things we’re a ‘family’. I guess this is better than nothing but it seems like a poor substitute compared to some of the older collective rituals.
Re. The riots, I do agree with you that the same reward circuits are probably at work when people pile on to someone online. Again though, this seems like a psychologically poor substitute to more traditional forms of collective protest. Not to mention, less useful in terms of outcomes at the group or societal level.
This was my first introduction to the podcast after reading High Rise and then seeking out some commentary on the book. It was a great find -- I really enjoyed your insights and personal stories connected to the themes of the book.
While I can't say I loved it, I found the story really intriguing. I agreed with Tom that there is a decent chunk where not much happens to develop the plot, but nonetheless it held my attention as I tried to understand the psychology of the residents. Or more specifically, why are they so committed to staying when things become so violent and dysfunctional? Unlike Tom, my read of the book was not that most of the residents eventually left, but that they stuck it out until the bloody end (literally).
I came to think that this might be Ballard depicting -- in a very exaggerated way -- how modern life is often so alienating, individualised, and perfunctory to many city professionals, that when a more chaotic situation emerges it just becomes intoxicating, in a primal sense. Through experiencing tribalism and the ability to lash out directly at some of the things that bother them, related to class inequality, etc., they became overwhelmingly drawn into the whole situation after living such a comfortable and conventional life for so long. So I do agree with Gav's suggestion that it might have some parallels with Fight Club.
In some sense, it did also seem kind of Freudian. Like the collective Id was lashing out after being dominated by the buttoned-down norms of the Superego for too long, perhaps. I'm not a fan of Freud but this seemed like it might have been an influence on Ballard's writing.
Personally, I remember when I was living in London during the riots related to the police killing of Mark Dugan in 2011. I was surprised at feeling excited and enlivened by there being some chaos and collective action on my doorstep because I'd not really experienced anything like that. I think it showed me 1) how viscerally powerful certain chaos or collective action can feel, and 2) how much it contrasts with the normal state in which we button down so many personal and collective grievances and channel them into weak substitutes like work or TV instead. Obviously that differs from the situation in the book but it did bring to mind the appeal of direct action, in some sense.
Anyway, I love the show and have discovered lots of new films and books to check out based on your other episodes. So thanks for what you're doing and please keep it up! Also, if I can put in a request for a future episode, it would be Mark Fisher's Ghosts of My Life. I found the ideas of 'lost futures' and hauntology to be really fascinating. I would love to hear you guys discuss it in a future episode as I think it covers a lot of topics that you both seem interested in.
Thanks again,
Joe